Siad Barre speaks to BBC Somali (1972)
Siad Barre spoke to BBC Somali in 1972, giving a wide-ranging interview on everything from Somali foreign policy to his hobbies and family life.
Hi everyone, it’s me again. This time, I’ve managed to uncover a rather interesting interview that the British embassy in Mogadishu had transcribed and archived; an interview Siad Barre gave to BBC Somali in July 1972. It is among the documents that I’ve been excavating from the UK’s national archives (it is a treasure trove). At the time, the Somali government had just declared that it would adopt scientific socialism as the state’s ideology and begin partially nationalising many large businesses. Barre and his team — a mixed regime of technically skilled civilians and army officers — were “self-taught socialists”, according to Mohammed Aden Sheikh, a former health minister who wrote a well-received memoir after the government fell. They were all “full of enthusiasm”, Sheikh wrote, starting “with the president himself”.
The interview is really wide-ranging and very long, so I’ve decided to gather the key parts that give us an insight into Barre’s thinking and what he hoped to achieve in Somalia. At times, it gets kind of strange. Barre, for example, explains the decision to nationalise Somali companies with an analogy of a man who mistakenly touches his sister’s breasts. Like the Somali business community, Barre says, it depends on how the sister responds. “If he takes it as we take, well he [the businessman who is the sister in the analogy] is a good man,” Barre told BBC Somali. At other points, you get a glimpse into his political philosophy, the importance of the Somali language, and other issues. In other places, he shows a paternalistic attitude, distrustful of the Somali public when he explains why elections cannot be held. “We shall hold these elections when the public, who have already achieved a high standard, reach such a maturity of mind as to be fully honest and pure Somali, without a tinge of imperialism,” he says.
One of the most sombre and depressing parts of the interview is when he discusses the execution of members of the Supreme Revolutionary Council, the country’s executive body, who “participated in the formulation of the law under which they were tried.” Barre adds: “Some of them even, it could be said, were responsible for its introduction.” The “revolution” truly consumed its children.
Looking back now, it can be somewhat jarring to read Barre — who would later become an extremely violent and repressive dictator — speaking about the preciousness of the human being and the importance of respect and care for Somali citizens. Nevertheless, it remains a valuable contribution to our understanding of his transformation: from those early years when he was a “revolutionary apprentice”, as Mohammed Aden, his health minister, described him, to a bog-standard autocrat.
Siad Barre on the purpose and aims of Somali socialism:
In my view, in the first place, the Somali people adopted Scientific Socialism in order to fulfil their interests. Many people do not understand it, and there are arguments about what is socialism and what is not. In the eyes and opinions of the Western or capitalist countries, socialism is an ugly monster which devours the people. The people who depict it in this way are wealthy businessmen and industrialists who make their fortunes out of the sucking of the people's blood and the exploitation of their physical and intellectual toil. The creators of this wealth, namely the toiling masses and the intellectuals, whose efforts produced the riches, are rewarded with a pittance. To defend this exploitation, the capitalists describe socialism as a monster devouring the people day and night and bent on setting children against their parents and vice versa. This is not the truth, however. The truth is something very different. The truth is that socialism is the only means to safeguard the freedom and humanity of the individual. The fundamental principles are based on the human being. He is the most valuable and precious being, and it is therefore necessary to value him highly, respect him, to look after his welfare, to give him proper medical treatment, to educate him, and to care for him. The principles of socialism are based on this. The workers in any part of the world outnumber the wealthy. Therefore, the fruits of their labour, whether it is physical or intellectual, must be fairly and justly distributed among the whole people. No one should exploit another person; each according to his labour, without fear of being deprived of it. This is the right of everyone. Socialism also means that it is the duty and responsibility of the state, or whoever is leading it at the time, to educate the people and enhance that education. It is necessary to advance their people's technology. The economy and the living standard of the individual must be planned in order to advance them.
Siad Barre on whether scientific socialism is different from other varieties espoused elsewhere:
Jaalle, the fact is — and we believe it — that there are no two socialisms. Socialism is indivisible; there is only one socialism, and this is scientific socialism. There is no such thing as African, Arab, Muslim or Somali socialism. Anyone giving it any other name, such as Mogadishu socialism, Baidabo or Hargeisa socialism, is a liar. He is evading socialism, and he is a coward running away from the truth or reality.
Siad Barre on whether Islam clashes with socialism:
Religion is your personal, individual faith. It is a matter of the belief and faith of an individual — whether it is Christianity, Islam, or any other. But socialism is the instrument of the policy of the state: to advance the economy, education, and health of the nation; to achieve the freedom and independence of the people; to free them from begging from others; to create peace among the people; and to create the best conditions for the people collectively, to their best advantage and not for individual greed. So, one is the instrument of policy for the life and well-being of the nation, and the other is the faith and belief of the individual. Therefore, we have found — and we can openly tell anyone — that they are two parallel concepts: an individual can practise his religion, and let him practise whatever religion he wants. We do not care. But socialism is the means to further his general health, achieve his full freedom, and cast off domination.
Siad Barre on military rule:
Jaalle, I think the terms military rule and civilian rule are old clichés bandied about by the imperialists. The rulers, as you know, are Somalis—whether they are wearing khaki or a white shirt. There is no difference between them. All that is required of them is to rule and lead the people honestly and justly. The necessary condition required of him is that he should work in the interest of, and not to the detriment of, the nation, and he should not exploit his position for his personal gain. But I do not believe there is any difference between the Somali soldier wearing khaki and the Somali civilian wearing a white shirt; they are both Somalis who are both needed by Somalia. The Somali people are very wise, and they cannot easily be deceived. They no longer listen to the old lies, and they now just look at how the leader is leading the people.
Siad Barre on education and the Somali language:
Jaalle, someone has said, “They are the same to me—the infidel who made the rifle and the infidel who made the bullet.” Now, we do not prefer one foreigner to another. Neither the Italian language nor the English language, or for that matter any other foreign language, is closer to us than any other. What matters to us is our interest, and this demands that our mother tongue must be written. This alone can advance the education of the Somali people. Neither the Italian language nor the English language, nor any other which may falsely seem to be a father-tongue, can advance our education. Indeed, they could only retard our education. Only the mother tongue can advance our education—and we are going to write it, Jaalle.
Siad Barre on the decision to nationalise Somali business:
Jaalle, a story goes that a man touched his sister’s breasts. After a bit of teasing she retorted: “The matter of the touching of my breasts by my brother depends how I take it.” However, what I mean to say now is that when we took these steps we were pursuing the interest of the whole Somali nation. But, it is up to the businessman how he takes this. If he takes it as we take it, well he is a good man. But if he thinks that he alone should live and let the others perish, well it is up to him and we do not care. We have already spoken to the wealthy and told them to build factories, and although, according to socialism all wealth must be owned by the public and not by private individuals, we nevertheless realised that the structure and nature of our country precludes us to decree that. So, we accepted private ownership provided it is not used for exploitation and domination. So, we advised the wealthy to turn to industries in which the state will participate. The state will participate in the financing and promotion of these industries. We told them this already and we repeat it again.
Siad Barre on whether the country will hold elections:
We shall hold these elections when the public, who have already achieved a high standard, reach such a maturity of mind as to be fully honest and pure Somali, without a tinge of imperialism; that is when they fully understand both the decisions they make and the man they elect as being in their interest and not against their interest. I believe we are now passing through a good phase, and when the opportune time comes, the people will choose suitable representatives.
Jaalle, I shall elaborate on this by giving you something you did not know about. We have now introduced what is called local government. That means the administration of every district will be put in the hands of the people of that district. They will rule their district and develop the economy and education of the district. They will promote the security and peace of the district. So, we shall build up from the bottom and up to the central Government. Therefore, Jaalle, I do not think that the people are missing any power. But, if power means that which those people (Ed: abroad) liked, namely elections, then the people who are to organise these elections, the candidates, and the elected must all be good honest Somalis.
Siad Barre on the execution of members of the Supreme Revolutionary Council:
I think this is a somewhat difficult question, but in my reply I shall give you the facts. Some of these men, as you know, were members of the Supreme Revolutionary Council; they participated in the formulation of the law under which they were tried. Some of them even, it could be said, were responsible for its introduction. However, as I have said before, justice is an important matter, and for it to be practised, the laws of the country must be respected. Respect for the law means that it must be obeyed and implemented. The organs of justice and the law have been investigating for a long time to see whether these men were guilty of the said crime. They were not the only accused, for many others were charged with the same offence. In the end, they were brought before a court.
Siad Barre on ties with the Soviet Union:
Jaalle, this is an insult to all Somalis. Moreover, it is an absolute lie. It is an insult to call a whole nation of an independent state a satellite. But the question is: why this insult? This insult arises from our former status as a satellite. But now we have rejected being a satellite. We let it be known that we are controlling our destiny, that we do not need anyone to guide us. Because we said this, imperialism started to insult us. We say we are no satellite of anyone. We are in control of our country and guiding its destiny. One can say we have good relations with the Soviet Union. That is true. We have very good relations with the Soviet Union. We are very satisfied with them. They help us greatly without any conditions. We do not see them as neo-colonialists. They are not setting our people against us.
Siad Barre on the question of Greater Somalia and relations with Kenya & Ethiopia:
We do not believe that Africans must kill each other; African blood must be preserved. Then there is the interest of Greater Somalia… If you ask me how far we have gone towards this, I would say I met the old leaders of these countries. They are wise old men. And when I weighed up their minds, I came to the conclusion that the main obstacle to a settlement and understanding between Somalia and these countries was the lack of trust. Consequently, we are now endeavouring to establish trust between them and us and to convince them that we are neighbourly, fraternal African peoples, that the interests of their peoples and the interests of our people are the same, that we want to bequeath to our future Somali generations not war and devastation, but peace and prosperity. These gentlemen are old men and I am an old man. Therefore, it is our duty to solve these problems and not to leave them to our future generations. That is what I have told them several times, and I am confident that mutual trust will be established between us, and that in the end we alone, without imperialist advisors sitting behind, shall settle our affairs. In this way, we can avert the shedding of the blood of the Somali, Ethiopian and Kenyan peoples. Then we can reach a stage where Somalia, Ethiopia and Kenya could fruitfully cooperate economically and otherwise and collectively work for their nations. I hope we shall reach that stage one day.
Siad Barre on Djibouti’s self-determination & independence:
As you might recall, we had said before, and we repeated it to France, that the people of French Somaliland should be given the right to self-determination. We totally back the idea. Regarding whether we should raise the matter in the places you mentioned, we believe we must first exhaust our friendly efforts to convince France, for I think it is in the interest of both France and the people of that territory that they should be granted the right to determine their destiny.
Siad Barre on whether Somalia would send soldiers to Portuguese-occupied territories & Rhodesia:
Somalia is prepared to contribute to any effort to further any African interest or cause.
Siad Barre on ties Arab countries and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict:
Our relations with the Arab countries are well known. All the Arabs are the same to us, and we do not prefer one particular country to another. We support them when they are right and tell them when they are wrong. However, if you are referring to the situation in the Middle East, we believe that the Arabs have been wronged, and we condemn Israel and its supporters for their inhuman and mistaken policies, which pose a threat to the peace of the world and destroy the interests of the neighbourly peoples. It must be remembered that when we condemn Israel, we also denounced Germany for massacring the Jewish people. This is because we believe it is wrong to annihilate a human nation. Therefore, we condemn the Jews and their supporters because they are committing the same crime. The Arab and Jewish peoples live in the Middle East together, and we believe that they should end their present hostility and live together in peace and harmony. What is needed is wisdom and reason and proper regard for the true interests of these peoples. This does not lie in war.
Siad Barre on his family life and duties to his children:
I take it you mean how do I fulfil my family obligations on top of my national duties. When we embarked on the revolution, I told my children and family that I had been working hard for a very long time to bring them up in the best way; therefore, from the start of the revolution, I shall be working for the whole of the Somali children and not for them alone. I told them I would give them whatever they need from me, but they must rely on themselves. I visit them twice a month in the west, and if I am busy, I do not visit them at all. The reason is I had decided to work for all the Somali children, and I am working for them. My children are among the Somali children for whom I am working. But occasions arise when I give them personal advice and help. In conclusion, I would like to say that I fulfil my duties towards them as much as I can, but when it comes to my duty towards them and my duty to the country and all the Somali children, I put the latter first.
Siad Barre on his hobbies:
Frankly, I find myself working all the time. There is always something to do. We know that the lifespan is limited, so while alive I think we must work for our people and country. However, to refresh myself for further work, I occasionally play table tennis at the Presidency, volleyball with the soldiers and my friends. If I have the time, I occasionally go horse riding. These are my hobbies. Besides, as you know, I smoke cigarettes heavily and I drink plenty of coffee. These are among my hobbies.
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Mahadsanid Faysal. Wax badan oo uu duuggnaa ayaad nala wadaagtaa mar walba.